One study
That is all it takes. A world of lies and myths have been developed because of one study. Cholesterol, depression, and diabetes are just a few cases of where isolated studies have led to massive changes in protocol. Sometimes the most influential studies are ones based on merely a single case, or a paper survey.
The worse thing to occur is when there are multiple studies that are used as a collection to arrive to a point, but that information was cherry picked or skewed to come to that conclusion. We see this a lot in research about carbohydrates and obesity for example.
A common place I am seeing this a lot right now is Xenoestrogens.
What is with that long X name?
Xenoestrogens (Zen-O-Estrogens) are a chemical compound made from man that in animals and humans mimic the effects of estrogen in the body. It is a by-product of various chemicals used in everyday things from drugs that we take to cosmetics and pesticides. There isn’t a specific Xenoestrogen, there are many kinds developed from many different sources.
The question of whether or not they are out there or if they can hurt you isn’t an issue. They are very much out there, and they can hurt you. The real question is what amount is going to cause you harm, how much does it take, and are you at risk? It would seem like a simple question to answer, one I actually think is, but in general these kinds of questions are never answered simply.
You were off by an aspirin
How much aspirin can you take before you would die from an overdose? Would taking one aspirin a day, everyday, for the rest of your life, do any good or harm?
When I ask you this question about aspirin you likely think of it in simple terms. You may not know how many at one time would kill you, but you would assume it would have to be a pretty extreme amount. As to how much you could take everyday, you may have a guess and you may have heard research, but you likely have a “one pill a day will likely not hurt most people” attitude.
How much alcohol would you have to drink before you would die from an overdose? Would having one drink of alcohol everyday, for the rest of your life, do any good or harm?
Alcohol is a poison to the body. Justify the few positive effects of a bottle of wine all you want, it is still a bottle of poison to the body. So why then do we have people throw out their bottles of water, and running in fear from steamed microwave vegetable bags, when these same people never question taking an aspirin or having a glass of wine?
Fear of the unknown
We know (pretty much) what aspirin is going to do to you. We know (pretty much) what alcohol is going to do to you. Now that we know, we simply have to roll the dice and take the chance.
Xenoestrogens however, we don’t know what it is going to do to us. Or do we? Do we actually have enough data and information to say for a fact now? That a little won’t hurt, but a lot will like everything else in the world? I propose that we do, but you can be the judge.
Logic gets in the way again
The pesticide is the true starting point for this issue. Let’s skip through the technical and focus on a really simple to understand fact. A pesticide exists to kill a living thing.
Do you understand that concept, because I don’t think most of you do. Let’s not confuse a repellent with a pesticide either. A repellent does just that, it tries to stop or deter whatever it is from approaching. For example, the face I make at clubs when I almost get trapped in the two guy hump (not sexy by the way boys) is a replant.
If a date jumped in and beat them to death because they were trying to protect me, that would be a homicide. When you kill bugs, it is pesticide. They don’t get the chalk outlines and missing posters either.
If you took and continuing exposed yourself in large amounts to something that was made to kill something small, don’t you think that it is going to fuck you up? Yep. No brainer right? It is a poison made to kill something tiny. It is BS to say that it couldn’t hurt you if taken in large quantities. Xenoestrogens are just one of a many things in pesticides that could hurt you in you ingested large amounts of them.
The key note is the word large. Large is an undefined term and varies amongst different chemicals. If you type into Pubmed different chemicals and different toxicity levels, well, basically welcome to writing a 10 year novel. Even then you will likely miss something.
What are the definitive conclusions that we can draw? What do the studies say?
Over and over the studies show the following…
Events happen, such as the Alligators of Lake Apopka, the Roaches of the UK Sewage, and the Girls of Guatemala. These events all have a solid ties to Xenoestrogens and other chemicals, but there is one huge factor in all three of them. All three were in areas of high contamination of chemicals and pollution or even massive chemical spills.
Other things are high factors like patients on dialysis (blood bag contamination) etc. The amount absorbed is what is important, and even then so is the type.
The take home point is that in extreme contaminated situations are the only times that we are finding something going down. In small situations, even of continuous repeated contamination, we aren’t seeing anything weird.
This is likely due to the fact that our body is made to process and remove these things on small levels. If the level of intake of a poison is small enough, and non-aggressive enough, then usually we will filter it out okay. It is when it becomes too much to filter anymore that the problem comes in.
One could argue that overtime these things could breakdown that very defense. I don’t think this is an off base argument, however you have to look at the big picture, and don’t cheat the research we do have. If this is a concern for you then the best thing to do is to limit your contact with poisons. To that I will say good luck if stepping out side your front door or breathing in general if leaving in a populated area.
What about my damn water bottle!?
There are 3 main sources for your water bottle troubles.
Source 1-A grad student, a kid from the Idaho, did his thesis on water bottles and their repeated use and if it was safe. No peer review, we don’t even know what this kid did. He could have left them in a 102 degree temp car all day with backwash and god knows what.
He turns in his thesis stating that in fact he found higher levels of DEHA. DEHA was once listed toxic, but found later to “cannot be reasonably anticipated to cause irreversible chronic health effects” as stated by the Environmental Protection Agency. That isn’t what his thesis read, it stated that it was.
His “study” got shot out along the waves of press release and it found a winner with a major news organization. Next thing you know emails left and right go out about how your water bottle is going to hurt you. I assure you the spit you left in it from not cleaning it out is ten times more deadly.
Source 2-A study that is often confused with water bottles or plastic containers is actually a study done on cans, not bottles. In this study they found varying levels of BPA (Bisphenol A) in the cans. The food cans ranged from ravioli, soda, and infant formula. Some had higher levels than others and over all was stated as below the provisional tolerable daily intake of 25 μg/kg of body weight/day established by Health Canada.
Source 3-It has been shown that BPA can be leaked from boiling liquid in certain types of plastic bottles (ex. Nalgene). My first question is why the hell are you boiling water in a plastic bottle in the first place? Last time I looked the pots and pans you by at a store to boil water in, not made out of that material. I don’t know, maybe it is just me, but is seems that if something is made for something and you do it anyway, you are asking for trouble.
One woman asked me about boiling baby bottles. That is a question with legitimacy, and they have tested this and it wasn’t found to an issue.
To add to this it turns out that the myth of old bottles versus new bottles has been debunked as well. In fact, it appears that over time you are actually destroying the BPA with repeated boils. So the way to actually make BPA not an issue is to give it repeated boils over and over again as the levels decrease overtime.
The last question is, are the levels dangerous in the first place, and it would seem that dose levels found are within the guidelines of some countries standard, for instance the EFSA. Nothing we are seeing is reaching any sort of high level.
Wait, what about microwaved bowls!?
That doesn’t involve Xenoestrogens at all because it is a different type of plastic. A study was done to test the release of sexual hormones from various plastics and microwave bowls (saran wraps, etc) and the result?
The results thus indicate that neither the stabilizers and plasticizers used in PVDC films, nor their extracts, exert sex-hormonal activity.
It did release levels of ATBC and DOA, but these levels were not found to be toxic. So unless you start melting things and nuking them for abnormal (against directions) I think you are going to be okay.
Closing the lid
Here is where I take a moment and I put away the sane logic and the facts that we have to work with.
It is not without a doubt in my mind that we as a world are putting more out into this environment than it can take. What we put in our air, what we dump in to our water, what we spray on our fields, and what we do to our bodies in general is going to slowly destroy our world and bodies with it.
It is a lot easier to cry over a plastic bottle than to stop supporting the massive amount of energy companies, cars, factors, and chemical companies that make your life more convent.
Take home point, the water bottle isn’t likely to hurt you. The air you breath outside is. Think about that the next time you freak out over eating steam bag veggies. Do something useful and support the change for your daily waste, not crucifixion based on spotty research and MSN news leaks.
–
References
Phthalate-induced Leydig cell hyperplasia is associated with multiple endocrine disturbances.
Developmental abnormalities of the gonad and abnormal sex hormone concentrations in juvenile alligators from contaminated and control lakes in Florida.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11351715?ordinalpos=10&tool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_
DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
Sexual disruption in a second species of wild cyprinid fish (the gudgeon, Gobio gobio) in United Kingdom freshwaters.
Migration of bisphenol A from polycarbonate baby bottles under real use conditions.
Bisphenol A (BPA) and its source in foods in Japanese markets.
Le, H. H., Carlson, E. M., Chua, J. P., and Belcher, S. M. 2008. Bisphenol A is released from polycarbonate drinking bottles and mimics the neurotoxic actions of estrogen in developing cerebellar neurons.
Maragou, N. C., Makri, A, Lampi, E. N., Thomaidis, N. S., and Koupparis, M. A. 2008. Migration of bisphenol A from polycarbonate baby bottles under real use conditions. Food Additives and Contaminants.
A summary report and full report are available on the EFSA website
Willhite, C. C., Ball, G. L., and McLellan, C. J. 2008. Derivation of a bisphenol A oral reference dose (RfD) and drinking-water equivalent concentration
Oh my, logic – that fleeing, elusive thought process!!! Where did it go? I guess it ran off with common sense!! . I love that you make the points about how alcohol is a known poison/toxin, yet people guzzle it down with no thought at all – yet bottled water? Never!
This article is so funny because it is so true.
Thank you Leigh for yet another dose of logic and common sense that is sadly absent in the media these days.
Great points here, Leigh. I like how you have explained all of this!
“If a date jumped in and beat them to death because they were trying to protect me, that would be a homicide. When you kill bugs, it is pesticide. They don’t get the chalk outlines and missing posters either.”
That made me laugh. Good article!
Hey Leigh!
This is my first time seeing the new site. It looks great!
What a fantastic article. I can’t say I know anything about this but it was an interesting read.
Great stuff-thanks for putting this in perspective!
I can’t wait to show this to all those people that want to tell me that my water bottle is going to kill me. I knew there had to be hype behind that.
Leigh what is the difference between the bottles that have it and don’t? That is where I am a little confused.
Leigh what do you think about Cassandras new article.
http://cassandraforsythe.blogspot.com/2009/05/reasons-why-you-dont-need-bottled-water.html
Seems to be a conflict there. Would be curious to hear your thoughts.
Missy-Heh I do love the logic. I won’t say there isn’t emotional influence there to, but objectiveness was my main focus.
Sinead-Thank you. It was one of those articles where I read it over again and wondered if I was speaking my own language. This thing took 12 edits and I still think it could use more edits and i want to put more sources in there.
Greig-To be honest, that was my favorite part of the whole piece.
Karen-Hey Karen, thanks for stopping by.
Sue-Thanks Sue
Matt-I am a little confused by your question. I am assuming you are asking what is the hormonal difference between types of water bottles?
If bottles like the pet bottle, which is the type the hot car leaking study came from, they do not release sexual hormones or release them of mini levels.
If bottles like Nalgene then they can leak it, but the levels are very small, and you can boil it out after a intense cleanings.
Jen-I would say that I agree with most of the article. I am big on recycling and trying to reduce my waste. I use refillable water containers and on very rare occasions do I get stuff out.
Like I said in my post above I believe in trying to save yourself and decrease harm by trying to save the environment. I think if you fix that then the rest becomes a moot point. However, people don’t want to give up their luxuries and we have yet to make it easy for people to make the right decisions.
I don’t agree with the plastics/BPA stuff obviously. I would be open to any studies she had of course pointing to that, and would be interesting to see if it was different from the work I have researched. My research has debunked that. However, I like Cass and would be open to seeing her side.
I would wager that she pulled a lot of those facts from a website devoted to the environment protections and while those site have their good points, they too use scare tactics to achieve their point and use cherry picked or wrongly interpreted data. This is how the lies travel.
Overall I agree with the point of reducing use of plastic bottles, but from a economical/environmental stand point only.
I was just emailed a study where the person gave me a “HA see” and well…
Few authors utilized the YES or other in vitro assays to
assess the total estrogenicity of beverages or foodstuff.
Klinge et al. (2003) detected a maximum 84 ng/l EEQ in red
wine. Promberger et al. (2001) calculated 23–41 ng/l EEQ
for beer, a result that was confirmed by Takamura-Enya et
al. (2003), who detected an estrogenic potency of approximately
30 ng/l EEQ in beer; extracts from soy based food
(miso, tofu, and soy sauce) and coffee also contained EEQ
in low nanogram per liter range. The range of estrogenic
burden we found in several brands of mineral water is
comparable to the hormonal activity of wine, beer, and soy
products, detected with the same in vitro assay. Again, the
distinction is that the abovementioned studies confirmed
naturally occurring phytoestrogens as an endogenous
source of estrogenicity, whereas mineral water does not
contain phytoestrogens.
Meaning that your pet bottle, and glass at times by the way, release the same or LESS that your beer or wine.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/515wg76276q18115/fulltext.pdf
The study is merely accounting of its presence, it is not saying that its presence is harmful. You can’t immediately go to the mindset of because it is there, that it will hurt you. That is flawed logic.
Hey Leigh,
I have been interested in the xenoestrogen topic for a while now, ever since John Williams published his article on t-nation way back. Working closely with mothers, we have switched to glass bottles, as well as have switched to preservative free cosmetics during pregnancy.
We can argue forever on the amounts of a xeno it would take to cause adverse changes in someone’s health, but I think we should be aware of the cumulative effect of pesticides, chemical and natural estrogen and general pollutants we see in air, those that come from household items and detergents, etc. It all adds up.
Have you seen this book? I recently came upon it and the website has some interesting links to research. I am sure you’ve seen most of it, but here it is just in case:
http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/New/recentimportant.htm
Thanks
Galya
Hey Galya
If you look at the study posted above that I just got sent you will see that glass can carry these xenoestrogens as well. Wine can carry them, foods can carry them, etc.
If you want to decrease the amount you could get exposed to I am saying is “good luck” because it is everywhere, at least in populated areas. If you live in more rural areas then small changes may make a differences, but it would be expensive and most people who live in rural areas do not have a lot a money.
Have you read through everyone of those studies on that site you sent me? There are some good one there, but none of them are relevant to what I am discussing for the purpose of the water bottle.
As I stated in the article:
“It is not without a doubt in my mind that we as a world are putting more out into this environment than it can take. What we put in our air, what we dump in to our water, what we spray on our fields, and what we do to our bodies in general is going to slowly destroy our world and bodies with it.”
I also stated:
“The question of whether or not they are out there or if they can hurt you isn’t an issue. They are very much out there, and they can hurt you. The real question is what amount is going to cause you harm, how much does it take, and are you at risk?”
Large amounts will hurt you. Collection of small amounts, could hurt you, but in my opinion you can’t control it on any large level or with ease and the amount in a water bottle isn’t going to do anything more than anything else.
What we should be fighting for is better legislation, better tax breaks and support for using safer farmer techniques, etc. Not putting websites and articles up all over the place about the dangers of something that isn’t the real problem.
In my opinion writing an article about the danger of a water bottle makes about as much sense as writing an article about the dangers of bullets without guns. Sure a kid my drop a hammer on one every now and again, but I think the bigger picture is being missed.
I will have articles in the future that discuss positive ways and ways you can use the evidence in the right way to work towards change. In the meantime though this article is about the safety or danger of drinking a water bottle, and as it stands there is no more a danger in drinking a water bottle then stepping outside your front door.
Also just to point out a few things about the studies on that site you listed.
Soy phytoestrogen causes uterine cancer, like diethylstilbestrol (DES)-
Wow, what a statement to make.
That study took and gave Mice high does of Genistein. Doses they say is the equilent to what a baby would get in a soy formula, but that isn’t true. Not all formulas have Genistein and the ones that do it doesn’t make up the whole amount. At most 65% and of that a 37-40mg does of total isoflvones.
So of that dose at most a 20-25mg intake of Genistein in some formulas. The does given the mice were double. Let’s not forget the size difference of a mouse and the fact that it is a mouse in the first place.
Again this goes back to the validity and connection of amount. I think having read that it, along with other reasons and better studies IMO, gives reason to not use soy in infant formula to be on the safe side, but its presentation is shock value and off the mark.
Oh, that everyone had even a fraction of your common sense and ability to use solid reason instead of freaking out about every little thing!
On the whole, I try not to get too weirded out about stuff like this. How many years have they been debating over the Incredible Edible Egg? Some years it’s a wonderful source of protein, so we should all eat eggs. Other years eggs are seen as a dietary dirty bomb to be avoided at all costs. If they can’t come to a solid conclusion after all these years about something as simple as an egg, why bother getting paranoid over stuff like water bottles?
Thanks again, Leigh!
I am far from the intention to give you a homework of a boatload of studies that you might find valid or not. My point was, ok, we have all these chemicals like BPAs, phtalates, phytoestrogens, pesticides, which happen to be studied and shown adverse effects of health. Given the cumulative effects of low dose exposure to ALL of these, and some we might not even be aware of yet, the average person interested in maintaining good health and eventually having an optimally healthy child, should be cautious and try to minimize exposure. Just yesterday I posted the Fanta cans study, where they found 300 times higher amounts of pesticides, that was allowed in tap water. Things like that are ridiculous and do pile up if you choose not to pay attention. I am far from freaking out and tearing carpet off my floors, but I don’t think we can go long with not paying public attention to chemicals that affect health.
I hope that you didn’t read aggression in my response Galya and like I said, I do see a problem, but again you have to look at the right sources IMO.
Take the tap water issue, now that is a real issue. I don’t drink tap water and would not suggest doing so. I think there should be a better oversight on those things.
Not the same though as a water bottle.
You are saying that these small things collect and can make a difference?You are trying to change the stuff that you have control over and influence?
I am saying that that there is very little you can do and that removing cleaners from your home, and not using a water bottle isn’t going to do anything because of what is outside your door, and really inside your door is way more powerful.
That being said that doesn’t mean you can’t do the best you can to give it a go. However, you need to really read these studies and see what all this stuff is in, even ORGANICS. You know why it is in organics, because it is everywhere.
Unless you grow organic food, using filtered water, in a enclosed air filtered greenhouse, etc. You are going to get some level of toxins.
So again, I say gather the research and studies that highlight the big stuff and put the focus on change in your government system. Until big companies stop dumping pollution into our air and lakes, sorry, nothing is going to change and a certain level of damage is un-changeable without massive man handling effort.
My point is you we are fighting at this from the wrong side. When you are trying to strive for a change you need to put your best guns forward and use logic and common sense, not scare tactics. Our countries all have two united factors, ego and money.
Our best chance at making a change is to feed into the ego of our countries by being the first and to feed into their wallets by making them the richest. Play that card on the environment and advancement will grow leaps and bounds. Keep playing the health/scare cards and you are going to see nothing but panic of them losing their money. In a panic we maintain the same actions due to an onset of fear and temporary insanity.
If you haven’t noticed our governments have been in that state for sometime now.
Leigh, my brain is on the floor from this whole entire KNOWLEDGE BOMB! Fuck.
This is my new sig.
“In a panic we maintain the same actions due to an onset of fear and temporary insanity.
If you haven’t noticed our governments have been in that state for sometime now.”
Leigh I would enjoy a LOT more posts like this.
Nice analysis, I like well reasoned perspective pieces like this, they show more thought and homework than the typical blog article and as a result are usually more useful in the long run.
Thanks!
Todd
I’m all about the Rinse, Re-use, Recycle.
Bottled water? Never. Makes no sense to spend a premium price on the most abundant cheapest resource on this planet… a premium that goes into making the container intended to be thrown away.. err, recycled, which nobody does. It’s like hemmorhaging money.
Leigh,
I am loving the site! It looks great. I actually just found you recently on the JPfitness community while researching the GoWear Fit. I think I went back and read everything on the old site and listened to all the old podcasts. You really have some great advice and an enlightening approach. Now I check in everyday.
Anyway, a while back you had said that when the new site launched you would be posting an article about the GWF. I am dying to hear your thoughts. I have had mine for about 3 weeks and have had good success. I can’t contribute it all to the GWF as I had a major overhaul in attitude at the time as well, mainly that I needed to get off my butt. I’m just very curious as to whether you think the device is accurate and if you think that there is life after it.
Thanks again for all the info. I look forward to checking your site everyday. Keep up the great work!
Nicole
Oh Leigh, you sure said it for me! This darned BPA plastic water bottle thing just made me CRINGE when it first came out. Why? Because I could foresee zillions of perfectly good plastic water bottles hitting the landfills. And meanwhile, the same folks tossing their water bottles are still tossing back things like Krispy Kreme donuts… which worries them not at all.
I’ve got my old plastic bottle… I actually DO rinse it out after use and run the top through the dishwasher to free it of toxic “spit” LOL!
Now, if I could only manage to download the AskLeigh PDF. The download cuts out and stops every time I get about 450KB downloaded. I must’ve tried a dozen times by now.
Todd-Thanks Todd. For people reading Todd discusses some very interesting work. You should check it out, great read. http://starkreal.blogspot.com/
Mike-Well put.
MBEmom-Yes I do have an article about the GWF coming up. A series of them actually.
Cynthia-Are you right clicking and saving as to your desktop? If that doesn’t work shoot me an email and I will give it to you myself.
[...] 6. Leigh Peele tells us if plastic is making you fat. For those who don’t follow me on Twitter or aren’t Facebook friends with me, I would be remiss if I didn’t direct you to Fat Loss guru Leigh Peele’s new home http://www.leighpeele.com While your there, be sure to check out her podcasts and find out if plastic makes you fat. [...]
Awesome article, very well written and thought out. I defnitely agree that plastic get a bad rap and many people believe these myths, many which are created by the media.
Leigh,
This was a great article. I feel relieved now that I do not replace my waterbottles very often. You make so much since.